122804-stop-wasting-effort-on-new-content-that-does-not-allow-progression-page-4

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At this point I think it's pretty clear that you've made your somewhat narrow definition of what an MMO 'should' be. You have shown time and time again that your only definition of multiplayer involves a very narrow scope of group play. You're not even willing to consider other views or definitions. And that's ok, because everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, this discussion is about ways to potentially implement or design solo content that provides real challenge on the same level, or even MORE difficult, than raid content, and having rewards based on that. I'm sorry that you can not see the possibility. However, that does NOT mean it doesn't exist, or that it's impossible! While I can not stop you from further replying to this thread, I would ask that you at least attempt to provide more substance to your arguments other than "It's impossible!" or "It would ruin raids!" or "It's not multiplayer!" Why don't you try telling us WHY you believe that would happen? Because several posts have already outlined ways in which it could be done without the consequence that you seem bent on, as well as providing real examples of MMOs that refute your own definition. But let me go ahead and try a different tack: We already have Veteran Ship missions. For the most part people consider them a little too easy, but still highly enjoyable! Are veteran ship hands trivializing the content at the same level? Are people not running adventures or dungeons because of them? Now imagine if there was another level above veteran ship hands that actually provided EXTREME difficulty, even for someone in veteran adventure/dungeon level gear. And what if that level of ship hand could only drop loot(with the same RNG as everything else) once per week. Would that ruin raiding, or trivialize it? Do you think people would stop raiding and only run those extreme ship hands? Or would it be more likely that they'd do both, especially if their raid group was having trouble downing bosses? Wouldn't it also create a larger pool of raid ready players in case you needed to recruit? And wouldn't the challenge and enjoyment of overcoming such exceptionally difficult content have some value on it's own? Now, this is just an example I pulled out of thin air. I freely admit that it's not a perfect comparison. But consider that if I could come up with this on the spur of the moment, what could a dedicated and professional game design team come up with? It should at least illustrate the POSSIBILITY of competitive solo content that doesn't wreck raids.


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I specifically said in my post that challenge is the essence of Wildstar. Whatever we are doing for rewards, it should be always be challenging. However, I don't believe there should be an artificial distinction between the rewards for people who group and people who do not. There should be a distinction in HOW they earn those rewards, not what the rewards ARE. Getting people together to raid is difficult, there's no denying that. But it's far from the only way to make the game difficult. What if you get rewarded one piece of raid gear for, say, getting #1 in DPS/Heals on Veteran STL 200 times completely naked? Would that make up for the challenge of getting 19 other people together to raid? What if you get rewarded a piece of raid gear for, say, completing Journey to Omin-Core 1 100 times with permanent disorientation controls? Would that make up for the challenge of getting 19 other people together to raid? What if you get rewarded a piece of raid gear for, say, completely mastering every single crafting profession and then unlock a new 'shipbuilder' crafting profession where you have to build and fully stock a new Arkship on your home plot that requires hundreds of high end materials from every other crafting profession? Would that make up for the challenge of getting 19 other people together to raid? Getting raid equivalent gear must, by definition, require an EXTREME effort on the part of the player. I do not nor will I ever deny that fact of gaming. However, I don't think that part of that challenge must necessarily involve raiding. There are other ways to create challenge than through raids. There are other ways to get players to interact than through raiding. I think it's something Carbine should explore


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I'm sorry yasfan, but you have given me little to no reasons to expect it would be easy to balance raid difficulty level content for one person. You have made a claim (in essence that all dps/tanks and dps/healers have most of the same strengths and weakness such that it would be easy to make content that is equally difficult for all of them) that I don't think you have truly backed up. I still will hold to the conviction that very challenging solo instances would need to be individually balanced to the class until I get some more specifics about how every class is secretly capable of the same things. In your example, Espers are (in my opinion) some of the better classes for soloing. With Giest, bolster, phantasmal armor, and innate, i can pretty much live through anything. SS on the other hand are pretty bad at soloing by comparison. Their ints are horrible, they have a dodge which resets the instance, and they don't have any good spammable heal to help with natural sustain, and their absorb shield is a lot worse than phantasmal armor. Medics, well I still don't know about medics. Engis are phenomenal soloers with their bots being able to take aggro. Warriors do a pretty good job if the stuff doesn't have much IA so they can moo everything. I think that stalkers struggle because their dps gets shot to hell as soon as they attack from the front (which they have to if they are solo), and their interrupts gets shot to hell. Not all classes are the same, not everything can be made up with in amps and abilities, and if you are going to make content which tests the limits of yourself and your class, I still think that we have presented arguments which suggest that it would be nigh impossible to make solo content that is equally  difficult for all classes solo. You could make content pretty hard, but it wouldn't test you in the same way that a raid can because in essence, all raids can and do have access to the same skillsets, while all solo players have different skill sets and available options. Unless you made every class have the same options, which removes all the fun flavor of each class.


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Please don't be bitter that I proved your numbers were skewed and exaggerated to a lower spectrum. The point is not how many people are doing it, but that more people are doing it than non-raiders seem to think. More people see the content each week, so it is perfectly viable and important to keep developing this kind of content. As far as solo player progression and small group progression, that is what this entire thread is based off of, so to steer it away from that would cause this thread to be useless. I stand by my point that until solo or small group content is as difficult as a 20 man raid, it should not offer the same level of rewards. It does not take a lot of time to raid. You don't have to be "hardcore". You can put in 6 hours a week or less, you just may not progress as fast. There is nothing holding a solo player back from raiding and getting the gear other than themselves. There are pugs and guilds out there for people that can only raid 1 day for a few hours.


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I'm not bitter, I'm just dumbfounded that you think such a small increase in players in each week is "more than I thought," Buddy, listen. If only 100 more people are seeing raids in a week, that's a .1% increase in players seeing that content in a week. That means in 6 months, 2.5% more of the population is seeing raids, ASSUMING NO INCREASE IN SUBSCRIBERS. Are you honestly trying to say that is a valuable expenditure of CRB development time and resources? Let's say that even if 10% more people were playing this game for the raiding content, that's still a small part of the population of this game. Wouldn't it be nice if Wildstar was sold as a game with hard and challenging content that all players have a chance to see and try their hand at competing? Right now it's being sold as a game that only 10% of the playerbase gets to even step foot into. You can't just make your whole game revolve around difficult and challenging raid content if only 10% of your subscribers ever get to try it! You're better off focusing on solo content or alternative gear progression in order to make those raids accessible. Solo Joe and Group Content healer Sally aren't suddenly going to be 9/9 DS just because you opened the door for them, but they are going to subscribe and try and kill bosses.


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Except that 100% of player have a chance to see the content, not just 10% or even the 1% you had mentioned see it. The only thing holding a person back from seeing the content right now is themself. I have never said that there should NOT be challenging solo or group content through any of my posts. I have only said that if they want equal reward they need to be on par in difficulty with the 20 man raids. Something I don't think is possible in a solo setting, but if it can be done I would be more than happy to see it. Now people may argue that they don't have time or only like to play solo, don't want to join guilds, etc. That is there own choice to not see the content, but it is available for them. Everyone that does choose to see it is not entitled to see the end of it without having to put in the time and work the rest of us do. Obviously, if they have less time to put in, they may progress slower, but the opportunities are still there. Any other post has just been arguing numbers with you, which are honestly irrelevant since as like I just said, everyone has the chance to do and see the content. Some just choose not to for various personal reasons or have not found a like minded group of people to do the content with. That does not mean it is unavailable to them. I don't complain about not being able to get top pvp gear because I don't have the time to sit down and do high end pvp. I just accept that its not something I can have and move on with life. So I feel no pity for people who want raid level gear, but don't want to raid to get it.


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Well if that were the case then 100% of the popuation would be raiders and this entire thread is proven pointless. Which we know is not the case. There are a lot of other things this game does well outside of raids: housing and dungeons just as two quick examples of things the game does very well. Hopefully we will be able to add PvP to the list of things that are done well with the future patches and eventually Drop 5, but that is to remain seen.


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Well yea, everyone does have 100% of the chance to see the content, as long as they go through all of the hoops, the long time investment, the RNG, and the raid organization. ... but that's kind of the point. The barrier to entry is too high. You can't just jump into System Daemons without first getting a decently good set of gear from multiple GA clears, finding 19 other people that meet your raid schedule, while also being a role / class that a group needs. The barrier to entry is too damn high! There needs to be an alternative gear progression that runs parallel to GA / DS! There needs to be a way for solo players and group content players below raiders to get caught up! These aren't things that take away from raiders. They are things that reward more casual players over time, for a similar time investment. For instance, there should be an alternative gear progression for GA, that includes things like a full set of i63 gear, bought with a currency that is rewarded from doing GA / group content. You would put a weekly cap on it (see elder gems) to keep people from bypassing the easier bosses, etc. That way, even if RNG kicked your ass for 6 weeks, you should could still be wearing comparable i63 gear, to that 65/68 available in GA. This directly then translates to an alternative gear progression in DS. If DS gear is going to be the max level of gear this raid tier, then you must have some kind of alternative ilvl range between GA / DS gear, to help people along. If people are weekly clearing GA, but are having a tough time with system daemons, then a a piece or two of better than ohmna level gear that is considered a side-grade would go well to letting people into that content. Further, this system encourages to play alts, and fill roles that aren't niche in a raid. In a game where raiding requires 20 people, there's a large chance that at least 1 of those players will be gone by the time you finish the content, or in a different role (healing / dps). An alternative gear progression system allows people to gear up alongside of their main roles, or to easily fill a role in a raid that loses their main tank to deployment, or main healer to pregnancy. An alternative gear progression allows people that have been playing the game, for just as long as raiders have, but not in raids, to eventually fill the gaps and take over roles that are needed in those raid environments. I have a feeling, and an educated guess from my experience with FFXIV, that having a system like elder gems etc that keeps people subbed and progressing the gear treadmill, without having to devote the equivalent of a part time job to DS, would increase subscribers exponentially. The idea is to offer side-grades, or slightly less powerful gear, so that the raiders who beat avatus still have their prestige, better gear, etc, but the ability to fill spots, kill the roster boss, and make the raids accessible to others is greatly increased.


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