124303-want-more-players-lfrduty-finder-page-3

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If this were the case, I almost guarantee it woudn't be used. People already shy away from queueing for dungeons without a premade group of some sort. If it was GA which I could queue up for, then I doubt most random pugs would get past X89, or even genetic monstrosity. I could get behind a boss in a box GA though. Queue up to fight X89. Maybe have to have key attuned slighty to do it (vet dungeons suppose) and lower his dps and make small bombs a bit more forgiving (slower spawn), hit platforms twice. Have them drop UPG and SSM level gear, as well as some cool costume pieces which are unique to that boss in a box. And they are already doing bosses in a box so why not take some cool GA bosses and put them in a box and let people who can't commit to a full GA attempt to clear through the LFR bosses. Lower time commitment, still the same fun. EDIT: The only thing I would be worried about is people queueing for GA, not realize what they are getting into, and then get frustrated and quit. At least with a guild, you have a raid lead, and some form of someone telling you what you should be doing and if you are new, they expect that and are willing to work with you.


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So, like... what people experience in dungeons? I mean, that happens to new players even in dungeons. They go in, not realizing it, and bam get smacked in the face. Hence the intro of the new levle 6 dungeon. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. Plus, if there's some for of premade queuing into the LFG for the raid, that's great. Means new/newish players can get in with experienced players and maybe even get hooked into a raiding guild. People will queue for it, get smacked in the face and either look to learn more or just say not for me. If people don't get past X89, thats OK. Eventually, enough people with experience will get past it though. It's exactly like what happened in ToR with their new raids. Pugs could not get past the 2nd boss at first, so people stopped queueing. Then enough people started queueing who did down that boss and now people do get past that boss and complete the raids in pugs. It's longer, yes, can be frustrating but it gives guildless players or people who have alts or w/e a new place to queue and get to see that content.


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this seems like a good midpoint, im pro not reciclyng content, in warcraft i did highmaul in 3 difficult settings and i got bored repeating the same content again and again just a little bit harder every time, now if its kinda the same but a lot different by location, trash, time taken, organization and loot ill be good as a step stone to raiding. even we dont need to feature all the bosses in the acts of GA. ACT 1 could be those 3, ACT 2 all 4 dinamo minibosses at once with a shared pool and prototypes, ACT 3 Ohmna, we left convergence kuralak and a lot of minibosses to appear only in the raid version. and you can queue for 1 of the different acts each time so it wont be time consuming. tonight i could decide to do ACT 1, but the thursday i could think of doing act 3 cause its just 1 boss and i dont have much time


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In response to your reddit post, if the team is not interested in making multiple dificulties of a raid, then how about a 10man karazhan style raid. I think 10man is the perfect size for pug stlye raid content since it gives you a raid feel but with less need for coordination. Karazhan was one of my favourite raids in WoW, It was mostly pug friendly but also had a great setting with some really fun boss fights.


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Challenge is only part of the equation. The social dynamics of an 10 man team are different from a 5 man one. 20 mans are large enough that people start feeling disconnected from the social aspect.


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I think those are different. Kara was a repeatable, community experience that filled several niches: content for smaller, casual guilds, intro to raiding, stuff to do for 20 man raiders when needing something else to do. It was soooo good. I like GA better, but just barely. Kara is what really made me fall in love with WoW back in the day.


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Not to mention failure modes. I am actually a bit of a fan of the 10-man format, but it does create some failure modes that in some ways are more harsh than larger raid sizes. Remember that WS has no failure recovery modes (e.g. battle resurrection) and few hard push abilities (e.g. bloodlust/heroism). Additionally any class in a WoW raid has all their abilities available. WS relies on a lot of particular roles as well, interrupt groups, specific CC needs, and so forth. You lose one person and depending on who it is, you may not have the DPS to push a damage check, you may not have the interrupt to break, you may be down the healer who was tasked on carrying the cleanse, so the others could use the LAS slot for an additional interrupt, etc. I think designing for a WS 10-man vs 20-man would be markedly different than WoW 10-man vs 25-man. And obviously Blizzard has been striving for even further scalability with flex raiding, though you'll note their touchstone raids are a fixed size -- you have to be able to design an encounter with a predefined set of people for some situations. And Karazhan wasn't just all social funtimes. I remember actual Kara progression (Moroes add kiting?  Shade of Aran?  Netherspite beam timing?). It had its challenging moments, especially if you weren't getting carried by anyone in any raid tier higher and we coming with fresh dungeon blues. Also, DBM was less of a thing and personal memory and good raid leading was crucial.


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Thanks for making sure nobody got confused, although I thought it very clear from your post that you were not even providing the slightest hint of a suggestion that you were doing anything other than seeking to assess whether people want LFR for increased accessibility to currently raiding guild-restricted content or the raid loot. I seem to recall from the responses that the consensus was that since it was clearly going to be less difficult than the existing raids, it shouldn't have the same quality loot as the existing raids, so that should put the idea that somehow this is all about facerolls for phat lewt decisively to rest.

Or not. Guys, this is not about loot. This is about life constraints and social dynamics. While I agree that per-boss loot lockouts ought to be a thing, it is not going to do what LFR would do.


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Well, yes to both of those things. Raids should just be added as a category to the group finder. And there should be some raids that are designed to be puggable. Raids should be added as a category to the group finder because raids are instanced group content that was not designed to be puggable but will inevitably become so over time, just like dungeons. There's no reason I should have to go out and schedule with 19 other people or form a group by yelling on /zone or on some custom channel when there's already a queue finder to do the exact same thing. Will anyone use it? Probably not with the current queue finder, which is hobbled from the start by the fact that you can't queue for more than one type of instanced content at a time. How that can have gone unfixed for as long as it has baffles me. The sheer number of people who would be happy to run ANY instanced content rather than stand around and wait for the one particular instance they might prefer to run is probably most of the playerbase.


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Hey it got me to PvP. Black Hoods outfit is pretty awesome (except the shoulder).


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