115782-changes-that-many-people-have-talked-with-me-about-page-3

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I know you weren't asking me personally, but I wanted to reply to this question too :) - I love dungeons. - I love adventures. - Expeditions are fun, but because of the way they're entered (via housing plots) my friends and I usually forget all about them and go do dungeons and adventures instead.  It's not that we don't like the expeditions.  It's just that when we have a group and want to do something, it's not top of mind.  Plus, people who PUG everything through the queue will *never* see expeditions. - Shiphands are a lot of fun solo, but mechanically they all seem to be very easy, to the point that I probably wouldn't bother to take a group on any of them (with the possible exception of the Freebot one, because the bikes are great).  However I think shiphands would be an invaluable learning tool to help introduce players to gameplay concepts such as interrupts, disarms, and so on. It might just be a matter of making the end fight in each shiphand mission a little tougher than it is currently - such that players have to do a bit more than just stay out of the red in order to win.


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I really like the longer dungeons. However, I'm wondering if one of the issues here is that adventures, that are supposed to be the easier content, tend to actually run longer than many of the dungeons. So you don't really have the content there right now for more casual people who want a 15-20 min group. Edit: I think there might be some proof for this in how many people I know who are still willing to do War of the Wilds, but not the other adventures.


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This is the worst possible way to look at things, as I mentioned before in the thread. The problem is that you've decided on the model that "more people= more difficulty". Look at the model above and notice that if you want to heal/tank, you have no easy content available. (I would also quibble with the notion that adventures are "medium", while they may be incrementally easier then dungeons they are no no stretch of the imagination dramatically easier.) I'm  pointing out healers/tanks because we need to understand that your scale is such that different play-styles are associated with harder or easier content. There is also the point that, as other noted, expeditions and shiphands are... well, they are simply hidden. The only time I ever entered an expedition was when I walked into one by accident, because I didn't know what it was. I understand that there are significant limitations on how difficult a solo instance can be, owing to the different capabilities of the various specs to solo hard content. But at the same time, you must understand that looking at the listing of content above, you have basically answered the question of "why do people say there is no endgame for casuals?" Because... there isn't any.


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The Rhinos in Genetic Archives. ^_^


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What would be funny is if those Rhinos had an amazing loot table secretly patched in... AND NO ONE WOULD KNOW. Pinks everywhere.


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First of all, I haven't had the chance to thank you and your team for the hard work you guys have done on the dungeons. Thank you. During beta, it was regular mode KV that sold this game for me and in turn, recommended this game to my friend. The dungeons are amazing in this game for sure and no other mmo has that kind of experience. That said, I know you agree that there should  be easier content....but I don't agree with how it could be implemented. I really think there should be easier and shorter dungeon maps. The reason I am adamant in saying that having shiphands and adventures not be a stop gap for dungeons, is because they each have their own playstyle. You guys are artificially limiting the potential of those game modes. I would love to see a super hardcore mode of wotw for example. I would really like for you to answer this for me if possible. Have you beat Liadri in Queens Gauntlet in GW2? If no, I really recommend you guys to do so. It's a super challenging solo content that not many people were able to beat. I bring this up because I think you guys have an opportunity to have a good difficulty spectrum across all your content. BTW, I have no idea what expeditions are so I'm just going to ignore it for now just to try to get my idea across. Shiphands = Solo content. Adventures = A group content designed outside of what dungeons are supposed to be. Dungeons = Traditional group content. What do you think of this difficulty spectrum? Easy - Dungeons, adventures, shiphands Medium - Dungeons, adventures, shiphands hard - Dungeons, adventures, shiphands, raids In my idea, the easy, medium, and hard dungeons, adventures, and shiphands are all different maps. There should be super hard solo content, there should be super hard adventures, and there should be easier dungeons. I realize this is a ton of work but I think this is what the future of WS should look like.


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I would say the question answers itself - from a certain point of view. Players aren't concerned with clearing encounters, they are concerned with clearing maps. For most non-dungeon spaces, they are able to see, experience, and enjoy victory over the space, which is why they don't clamor for more difficult versions of the spaces they can already beat. I look forward to veteran shiphands, but that's just for a bit more variety - I was able to see the story. I think most people skip dungeons on the way up (you mentioned people who do any dungeons are more likely to stick with the game) and at elder game find themselves clawing ineffectually at Stormtalon or other Vet dungeon bosses without any sense of having beaten it... ever. And so they ask for a version they can beat, a version that lets them feel they've experienced the whole story of the space. And since they are level 50 now and supposed to be doing elder stuff, it doesn't occur to most folks that you can go back, spend 20-80 minutes doing stuff with zero elder points rewards (the non-veteran versions) and get a complete sense of the story of the space. I think you'll see that incentivizing use of the non-Vet dungeons during the leveling process will go a long way towards scratching that itch to have seen and conquered those spaces. Conversely, adding new spaces with intermediary difficulties doesn't address their problem - they've still never beaten Stormtalon and to them the book lies there, the last few pages unread and unreadable.


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So from memory, i ran one which was themed as an elden tech facility with 40ish stalker about a month after launch. I simply could not defeat the final boss without a healer. I also think it would have been tough with a healer, i lasted for about 7mins straight after i mastered the telegraph pattern, and had only halved its health? or so. I remember it being uber tanky. I later did it with a group of 3-4 players and it was much more balanced, the the reward was a bit lack lust (yay for the change). The other was on my Spell slinger, fresh 50. It was a underground facility, with wandering strain monsters all in packs. It looked cool, but i could not tank the packs, they also had alot of health. Honestly it looked scaled for 3 people. So the moment the pack reached me i died. Possibly i was not meant to fight them? In which case i couldnt figure out what to do, i tried to go as far in as possible avoiding the patrols. But in the end, i think i had to kill them, and simply got hammered when i tried. Also, during closed beta, i played the Osin KV expedition solo as a warrior, i completed it no worries the first time (really fun bite size content, though got no reward bag(a bug)), then the second time was after a large patch close to open betas end, as a warrior (25ish) and all of a sudden the last boss was impossible to beat. He had too much health, and without heals i could not beat him down at all. The Expeditions themselves where great, and when i can solo them it will be even better. But honestly though, im not sure having such involved content as a plug is a great idea, a simple challenge or mini game i can understand. But the expedition was alot more involved (particularly the elden tech facility and KV one i managed to see the whole way through), i feel like they are under utilised, and having to make the hard choice to use them on your plot if you want access to them, im not sure its a great way to experience them, I almost feel they should be in the group finder, or at least somehow permanently accessible in game without taking plug space? Maybe if they where integrated as points of interest in the cities? Dunno. just my thoughts, maybe im too lazy to find them :P Also, i heard you guys made these things in a single weekend on your free time, as a fun project. That is amazing! Did it really take just a weekend to do this though? Or are we talking just the bare bones design/Proof of concept, not fully functioning. Becuase if all the expeditions in game are literally a weekends work, then you guys need to sit down for another session and pump some casual expeditions out, becuase frankly the quality is great and this would really flesh out the endgame casual content a lot! Keep up the great work!


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Unfortunately, I've had the same experience with Mordecai Redmoon. I'd like to do him legitimately but the group usually gives up after the same guy runs into lasers 3 pulls in a row. I think the chance to fix this is over. The ledge culture is strong and the need to get this dungeon done no longer really exists in strength so people won't generally take the time to learn the boss correctly.


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I agree it IS a good feeling. Regular mode KV is what sold me into the game during beta.....BUT its only awesome when you do it the first couple of times. After that, the difficulty just gets in the way of enjoyment when you just want to have a nice relaxing (and short) play session at the end of a long day. It's not just me who's saying that.....the mass exodus of players who left at the month and a half mark says it all.....aaaand Carbine have also admitted they have found players wanting shorter play session content and imo they are doing it wrong. I want shorter dungeons not shorter adventures or whatever they are planning to give us.


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As perviously mentioned, Veteran shiphands will be hear as early as drop 4 in January or so. So that is great news! Also, the devs realise that the dungeon experience is to overwhelming o new players, as somebody that followed this game very closely i was fully aware of what to expect when i ran my first dungeon. That being said, when i did, i still got my butt wooped. I can see how this can be a turnoff, and there needs to be a better way to introduce players to the difficulty curve, and to reward them from trying to beat it. Thankfully they are doing that! In drop 4 we will be seeing the protogames dungeon, which is both shorter in length, and designed for level 10's to teach them how to do dungeons. The veteran version will also be a shorter dungeon. and based around fun shorter encounters with individual medal rewards. Its a nice step forward to say the least. They are also upping the rewards and xp for running dungeons while leveling in order to encourage people to do them at lower levels. As far as the elitist/attitude towards dungeons goes, i think that is definatley an issue. Nobody should need to research a fight in order to do it. It should be a learning process and an enjoyable one. Frankly though, for the mean time, i would suggest not pugging, and running dungeons with friends/guildies. This is where the content is most enjoyable, pugs just get frustrated, that's just the internet for you :(


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I didn't know that. They should just make a regular level 50 version for all dungeons then. I feel like if I had to go back and do the other lower level dungeons, that I would be regressing in my "progression". Make a reg level 50 version (except swordmaiden obviously)  for all dungeons and then leave the current dungeons as is, then improve the medal system so that it doesn't count time nor deaths, and I think that should solve most problems instead of my original idea of having 3 different difficulty settings. Also split all dungeons into two independent queue-able paths.


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I don't know why people don't run it. Is swordmaiden the only level 50 dungeon there is? If so, isn't it because its too long maybe? I've never done it so I wouldn't know.


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